Inappropriate color name

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Inappropriate color name

Lainey Gallenberg
Hello,

I'm hoping someone on here knows the appropriate place/contact for me to
lodge a complaint about a color name in the "colors" function. I was
shocked to see there are four named color options that include the term
"indianred." Surely these colors can be changed to something less
offensive- my suggestion is "blush." How can I find out who to contact
about making this happen?

Thank you in advance for any suggestions.

Sincerely,
Elaine Gallenberg

        [[alternative HTML version deleted]]

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Re: Inappropriate color name

Mitchell Maltenfort
According to Wikipedia -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_red_(color)
-- "Indian red" refers to a pigment from India.

The Wikipedia page reports that Crayola were concerned about the mistaken
etymology so used the name "Chestnut"

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 1:39 PM Lainey Gallenberg <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm hoping someone on here knows the appropriate place/contact for me to
> lodge a complaint about a color name in the "colors" function. I was
> shocked to see there are four named color options that include the term
> "indianred." Surely these colors can be changed to something less
> offensive- my suggestion is "blush." How can I find out who to contact
> about making this happen?
>
> Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
>
> Sincerely,
> Elaine Gallenberg
>
>         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>

        [[alternative HTML version deleted]]

______________________________________________
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Re: Inappropriate color name

Rainer M Krug-3
In reply to this post by Lainey Gallenberg
Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_red_(color) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_red_(color)> for where the name comes from. To cite:

"The name Indian red derives from the red laterite <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laterite> soil found in India <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India>, which is composed of naturally occurring iron oxides <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_oxide>.[citation needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>] The first recorded use of Indian red as a color term in English <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language> was in 1672.[3] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_red_(color)#cite_note-3>”

So I do not see any offence in the name.

Cheers,

Rainer



> On 16 Nov 2020, at 03:35, Lainey Gallenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm hoping someone on here knows the appropriate place/contact for me to
> lodge a complaint about a color name in the "colors" function. I was
> shocked to see there are four named color options that include the term
> "indianred." Surely these colors can be changed to something less
> offensive- my suggestion is "blush." How can I find out who to contact
> about making this happen?
>
> Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
>
> Sincerely,
> Elaine Gallenberg
>
> [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.

--
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Orcid ID: 0000-0002-7490-0066

Department of Evolutionary Biology and Environmental Studies
University of Zürich
Office Y34-J-74
Winterthurerstrasse 190
8075 Zürich
Switzerland

Office: +41 (0)44 635 47 64
Cell:       +41 (0)78 630 66 57
email:      [hidden email]
                [hidden email]
Skype:     RMkrug

PGP: 0x0F52F982




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Re: Inappropriate color name

Kevin E. Thorpe
In reply to this post by Lainey Gallenberg
This is a standard colour palette name that has been in use for years. R did not invent it. It simply uses the standard names. Look up indianred on google. You will find Wikipedia entries, hex codes for the colour, etc.

This has nothing to do with R, in my opinion.

--
Kevin E. Thorpe
Head of Biostatistics,  Applied Health Research Centre (AHRC)
Li Ka Shing Knowledge Institute of St. Michael's
Assistant Professor, Dalla Lana School of Public Health
University of Toronto
email: [hidden email]  Tel: 416.864.5776  Fax: 416.864.3016
 

On 2020-11-16, 1:39 PM, "R-help on behalf of Lainey Gallenberg" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    EXTERNAL EMAIL:  Treat content with extra caution.

    Hello,

    I'm hoping someone on here knows the appropriate place/contact for me to
    lodge a complaint about a color name in the "colors" function. I was
    shocked to see there are four named color options that include the term
    "indianred." Surely these colors can be changed to something less
    offensive- my suggestion is "blush." How can I find out who to contact
    about making this happen?

    Thank you in advance for any suggestions.

    Sincerely,
    Elaine Gallenberg

            [[alternative HTML version deleted]]

    ______________________________________________
    [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
    https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
    PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
    and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.

______________________________________________
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Re: Inappropriate color name

Lainey Gallenberg
In reply to this post by Mitchell Maltenfort
Hello,

Thanks for the information. I am glad to learn the etymology of the word is
not related to the offensive terms used in the US and Canada. Personally, I
would prefer if R took Crayola's route and changed the name to avoid this
mistake in the future, but perhaps this sentiment is not shared by others.

Best,
Elaine

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:46 AM Mitchell Maltenfort <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> According to Wikipedia -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_red_(color)
> -- "Indian red" refers to a pigment from India.
>
> The Wikipedia page reports that Crayola were concerned about the mistaken
> etymology so used the name "Chestnut"
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 1:39 PM Lainey Gallenberg <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm hoping someone on here knows the appropriate place/contact for me to
>> lodge a complaint about a color name in the "colors" function. I was
>> shocked to see there are four named color options that include the term
>> "indianred." Surely these colors can be changed to something less
>> offensive- my suggestion is "blush." How can I find out who to contact
>> about making this happen?
>>
>> Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Elaine Gallenberg
>>
>>         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>>
>

        [[alternative HTML version deleted]]

______________________________________________
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Re: Inappropriate color name

Jim Lemon-4
In reply to this post by Lainey Gallenberg
Hi Elaine,
There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I don't
think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon to
comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the user. It is
the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the words wastes your
time, blames those who use the words harmlessly, and gives the real
offender time to find another epithet.

Jim

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 5:39 AM Lainey Gallenberg <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm hoping someone on here knows the appropriate place/contact for me to
> lodge a complaint about a color name in the "colors" function. I was
> shocked to see there are four named color options that include the term
> "indianred." Surely these colors can be changed to something less
> offensive- my suggestion is "blush." How can I find out who to contact
> about making this happen?
>
> Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
>
> Sincerely,
> Elaine Gallenberg
>
>         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>

        [[alternative HTML version deleted]]

______________________________________________
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Re: Inappropriate color name

Bert Gunter-2
WIth all due respect, can we end this thread NOW. This is not a forum to
discuss social or political viewpoints. I consider it a disservice to make
it one.

Bert Gunter

"The trouble with having an open mind is that people keep coming along and
sticking things into it."
-- Opus (aka Berkeley Breathed in his "Bloom County" comic strip )


On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 12:54 PM Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Elaine,
> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I don't
> think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon to
> comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the user. It is
> the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the words wastes your
> time, blames those who use the words harmlessly, and gives the real
> offender time to find another epithet.
>
> Jim
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 5:39 AM Lainey Gallenberg <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm hoping someone on here knows the appropriate place/contact for me to
> > lodge a complaint about a color name in the "colors" function. I was
> > shocked to see there are four named color options that include the term
> > "indianred." Surely these colors can be changed to something less
> > offensive- my suggestion is "blush." How can I find out who to contact
> > about making this happen?
> >
> > Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Elaine Gallenberg
> >
> >         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> > PLEASE do read the posting guide
> > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
> >
>
>         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>

        [[alternative HTML version deleted]]

______________________________________________
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Re: Inappropriate color name

Lainey Gallenberg
 Whether or not you agree with my reason for doing so, my question was how
to contact the creator of the "colors" function. If you do not have advice
on this, please refrain from weighing in.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 12:03 PM Bert Gunter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> WIth all due respect, can we end this thread NOW. This is not a forum to
> discuss social or political viewpoints. I consider it a disservice to make
> it one.
>
> Bert Gunter
>
> "The trouble with having an open mind is that people keep coming along and
> sticking things into it."
> -- Opus (aka Berkeley Breathed in his "Bloom County" comic strip )
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 12:54 PM Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Elaine,
>> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I
>> don't
>> think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
>> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon to
>> comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the user. It is
>> the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the words wastes your
>> time, blames those who use the words harmlessly, and gives the real
>> offender time to find another epithet.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 5:39 AM Lainey Gallenberg <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I'm hoping someone on here knows the appropriate place/contact for me to
>> > lodge a complaint about a color name in the "colors" function. I was
>> > shocked to see there are four named color options that include the term
>> > "indianred." Surely these colors can be changed to something less
>> > offensive- my suggestion is "blush." How can I find out who to contact
>> > about making this happen?
>> >
>> > Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Elaine Gallenberg
>> >
>> >         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>> >
>> > ______________________________________________
>> > [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
>> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> > PLEASE do read the posting guide
>> > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>> >
>>
>>         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>>
>

        [[alternative HTML version deleted]]

______________________________________________
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Re: Inappropriate color name

Mitchell Maltenfort
[hidden email]. would be the first stop.



On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 4:37 PM Lainey Gallenberg <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>  Whether or not you agree with my reason for doing so, my question was how
> to contact the creator of the "colors" function. If you do not have advice
> on this, please refrain from weighing in.
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 12:03 PM Bert Gunter <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > WIth all due respect, can we end this thread NOW. This is not a forum to
> > discuss social or political viewpoints. I consider it a disservice to
> make
> > it one.
> >
> > Bert Gunter
> >
> > "The trouble with having an open mind is that people keep coming along
> and
> > sticking things into it."
> > -- Opus (aka Berkeley Breathed in his "Bloom County" comic strip )
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 12:54 PM Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Elaine,
> >> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I
> >> don't
> >> think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
> >> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon to
> >> comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the user. It
> is
> >> the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the words wastes
> your
> >> time, blames those who use the words harmlessly, and gives the real
> >> offender time to find another epithet.
> >>
> >> Jim
> >>
> >> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 5:39 AM Lainey Gallenberg <
> >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hello,
> >> >
> >> > I'm hoping someone on here knows the appropriate place/contact for me
> to
> >> > lodge a complaint about a color name in the "colors" function. I was
> >> > shocked to see there are four named color options that include the
> term
> >> > "indianred." Surely these colors can be changed to something less
> >> > offensive- my suggestion is "blush." How can I find out who to contact
> >> > about making this happen?
> >> >
> >> > Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
> >> >
> >> > Sincerely,
> >> > Elaine Gallenberg
> >> >
> >> >         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
> >> >
> >> > ______________________________________________
> >> > [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> >> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> >> > PLEASE do read the posting guide
> >> > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> >> > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
> >> >
> >>
> >>         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________
> >> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> >> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> >> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> >> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
> >>
> >
>
>         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>

        [[alternative HTML version deleted]]

______________________________________________
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Re: Inappropriate color name

Martin Morgan-4
Lainey wishes to report a bug, so should see ?bug.report. Mail sent to R-core will be held for moderator approval, and relevant input or ultimate resolution would not be visible to the wider community; it is not a good place to report bugs.

Martin Morgan

On 11/16/20, 4:48 PM, "R-help on behalf of Mitchell Maltenfort" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    [hidden email]. would be the first stop.



    On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 4:37 PM Lainey Gallenberg <
    [hidden email]> wrote:

    >  Whether or not you agree with my reason for doing so, my question was how
    > to contact the creator of the "colors" function. If you do not have advice
    > on this, please refrain from weighing in.
    >
    > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 12:03 PM Bert Gunter <[hidden email]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > > WIth all due respect, can we end this thread NOW. This is not a forum to
    > > discuss social or political viewpoints. I consider it a disservice to
    > make
    > > it one.
    > >
    > > Bert Gunter
    > >
    > > "The trouble with having an open mind is that people keep coming along
    > and
    > > sticking things into it."
    > > -- Opus (aka Berkeley Breathed in his "Bloom County" comic strip )
    > >
    > >
    > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 12:54 PM Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Hi Elaine,
    > >> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I
    > >> don't
    > >> think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
    > >> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon to
    > >> comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the user. It
    > is
    > >> the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the words wastes
    > your
    > >> time, blames those who use the words harmlessly, and gives the real
    > >> offender time to find another epithet.
    > >>
    > >> Jim
    > >>
    > >> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 5:39 AM Lainey Gallenberg <
    > >> [hidden email]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > Hello,
    > >> >
    > >> > I'm hoping someone on here knows the appropriate place/contact for me
    > to
    > >> > lodge a complaint about a color name in the "colors" function. I was
    > >> > shocked to see there are four named color options that include the
    > term
    > >> > "indianred." Surely these colors can be changed to something less
    > >> > offensive- my suggestion is "blush." How can I find out who to contact
    > >> > about making this happen?
    > >> >
    > >> > Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
    > >> >
    > >> > Sincerely,
    > >> > Elaine Gallenberg
    > >> >
    > >> >         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
    > >> >
    > >> > ______________________________________________
    > >> > [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
    > >> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
    > >> > PLEASE do read the posting guide
    > >> > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
    > >> > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
    > >> >
    > >>
    > >>         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
    > >>
    > >> ______________________________________________
    > >> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
    > >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
    > >> PLEASE do read the posting guide
    > >> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
    > >> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
    > >>
    > >
    >
    >         [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
    >
    > ______________________________________________
    > [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
    > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
    > PLEASE do read the posting guide
    > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
    > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
    >

    [[alternative HTML version deleted]]

    ______________________________________________
    [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
    https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
    PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
    and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
______________________________________________
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Re: Inappropriate color name

Rolf Turner
In reply to this post by Jim Lemon-4

On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100
Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Elaine,
> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I
> don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon
> to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the
> user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the
> words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly,
> and gives the real offender time to find another epithet.

Jim:  This is superbly expressed.  I wish that I could have said
that! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric,
alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield".

cheers,

Rolf

--
Honorary Research Fellow
Department of Statistics
University of Auckland
Phone: +64-9-373-7599 ext. 88276

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Re: Inappropriate color name

Stephen Ellison
In reply to this post by Lainey Gallenberg


>  Whether or not you agree with my reason for doing so, my question was
> how to contact the creator of the "colors" function. If you do not have advice
> on this, please refrain from weighing in.

... which is precisely what Prof Gunter said.

However, it is worth consulting the documentation when you are seeking an author or maintainer. In this instance, you will find that 'colours' (and yes, 'color' grates) is part of the grDevices package, and the package maintainers and the relevant email is on the ?grDevices manual page.





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Re: Inappropriate color name

Mitchell Maltenfort
In reply to this post by Rolf Turner
Thanks, Rolf, I never saw the Letter to Chesterfield myself.

Though I admit I run more to Swift's "A Modest Proposal" but then if you
really want to get into being impolitic that's a stellar example!

Mitch

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:46 PM Rolf Turner <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100
> Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Elaine,
> > There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I
> > don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
> > antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon
> > to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the
> > user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the
> > words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly,
> > and gives the real offender time to find another epithet.
>
> Jim:  This is superbly expressed.  I wish that I could have said
> that! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric,
> alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield".
>
> cheers,
>
> Rolf
>
> --
> Honorary Research Fellow
> Department of Statistics
> University of Auckland
> Phone: +64-9-373-7599 ext. 88276
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>

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Re: Inappropriate color name

R help mailing list-2
In reply to this post by Lainey Gallenberg

On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> <mailto:[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Elaine,There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. Idon't think that it does anything against racism, sexism orantidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexiconto comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of theuser. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing thewords wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly,and gives the real offender time to find another epithet.
>
Jim:  This is superbly expressed.  I wish that I could have saidthat! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric,alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield".cheers,Rolf
-- Honorary Research FellowDepartment of StatisticsUniversity of AucklandPhone: +64-9-373-7599 ext. 88276

To Rolf's excellent example, I would add Mandy Rice-Davies' immortal words from the witness box.



- T. Arthur Milne


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Re: Inappropriate color name

Ryan Novosielski
In reply to this post by Rolf Turner
> On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Rolf Turner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100
> Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Elaine,
>> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I
>> don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
>> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon
>> to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the
>> user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the
>> words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly,
>> and gives the real offender time to find another epithet.
>
> Jim:  This is superbly expressed.  I wish that I could have said
> that! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric,
> alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield".
>
> cheers,
>
> Rolf

You know, I wouldn’t have continued this thread (which has now wandered off topic from the original somewhat-more-technical question), but I feel now like it’s necessary to do so (and only fair, if anyone is considering moderating me after letting these posts by):

That is a view commonly held by white people, and even more overwhelmingly by white men. Our field is already not as diverse as it should be for a variety of reasons, and this “pretending no one else on earth exists” kind of stuff is at least some part of the reason. The question at issue here aside, white men complaining about people finding racism or sexism everywhere they look doesn’t pass the sniff test. Most or all of these things that people are reporting as offensive are being reported by people you’re clearly not listening to.

Further, impact is what matters. If I step on your foot, I apologize, regardless of whether or not it was intentional, because it’s the right thing to do. If someone tells you “that thing you’re saying is offensive or is hurting me” and you say “I didn’t mean it,” and then keep right on doing it, what does it say to the person on the receiving end of it? All anyone that is being “blamed,” as you put it, is being asked to do is to try to do better next time.

--
#BlackLivesMatter
____
|| \\UTGERS,   |---------------------------*O*---------------------------
||_// the State |         Ryan Novosielski - [hidden email]
|| \\ University | Sr. Technologist - 973/972.0922 (2x0922) ~*~ RBHS Campus
||  \\    of NJ | Office of Advanced Research Computing - MSB C630, Newark
     `'

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Re: Inappropriate color name

Chris Evans
... and we are off topic and I'm not sure I would vote for changing the name of the colour but at the same time I have to endorse that as a brilliant, brilliant summary of the issues which ought to be a fortune candidate.  

I have cc'd in the noble Achim, maintainer of the cookies package as I seem to remember that's the correct way to make a formal nomination.

Very best all,

Chris

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Novosielski" <[hidden email]>
> To: "r-help mailing list" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Lainey Gallenberg" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, 17 November, 2020 16:39:38
> Subject: Re: [R] Inappropriate color name

>> On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Rolf Turner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100
>> Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Elaine,
>>> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I
>>> don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
>>> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon
>>> to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the
>>> user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the
>>> words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly,
>>> and gives the real offender time to find another epithet.
>>
>> Jim:  This is superbly expressed.  I wish that I could have said
>> that! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric,
>> alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield".
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Rolf
>
> You know, I wouldn’t have continued this thread (which has now wandered off
> topic from the original somewhat-more-technical question), but I feel now like
> it’s necessary to do so (and only fair, if anyone is considering moderating me
> after letting these posts by):
>
> That is a view commonly held by white people, and even more overwhelmingly by
> white men. Our field is already not as diverse as it should be for a variety of
> reasons, and this “pretending no one else on earth exists” kind of stuff is at
> least some part of the reason. The question at issue here aside, white men
> complaining about people finding racism or sexism everywhere they look doesn’t
> pass the sniff test. Most or all of these things that people are reporting as
> offensive are being reported by people you’re clearly not listening to.
>
> Further, impact is what matters. If I step on your foot, I apologize, regardless
> of whether or not it was intentional, because it’s the right thing to do. If
> someone tells you “that thing you’re saying is offensive or is hurting me” and
> you say “I didn’t mean it,” and then keep right on doing it, what does it say
> to the person on the receiving end of it? All anyone that is being “blamed,” as
> you put it, is being asked to do is to try to do better next time.
>
> --
> #BlackLivesMatter
> ____
>|| \\UTGERS,   |---------------------------*O*---------------------------
>||_// the State |         Ryan Novosielski - [hidden email]
>|| \\ University | Sr. Technologist - 973/972.0922 (2x0922) ~*~ RBHS Campus
>||  \\    of NJ | Office of Advanced Research Computing - MSB C630, Newark
>     `'
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.

--
Small contribution in our coronavirus rigours:
https://www.coresystemtrust.org.uk/home/free-options-to-replace-paper-core-forms-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic/

Chris Evans <[hidden email]> Visiting Professor, University of Sheffield <[hidden email]>
I do some consultation work for the University of Roehampton <[hidden email]> and other places
but <[hidden email]> remains my main Email address.  I have a work web site at:
   https://www.psyctc.org/psyctc/
and a site I manage for CORE and CORE system trust at:
   http://www.coresystemtrust.org.uk/
I have "semigrated" to France, see:
   https://www.psyctc.org/pelerinage2016/semigrating-to-france/ 
   https://www.psyctc.org/pelerinage2016/register-to-get-updates-from-pelerinage2016/

If you want an Emeeting, I am trying to keep them to Thursdays and my diary is at:
   https://www.psyctc.org/pelerinage2016/ceworkdiary/
Beware: French time, generally an hour ahead of UK.

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Re: Inappropriate color name

Derek Ogle
In reply to this post by Ryan Novosielski
I agree with, support, and appreciate this message. Thank you Ryan for the courage to write this, and Lainey for your courage to persist with your question.

-----Original Message-----
From: R-help <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Ryan Novosielski
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 9:40 AM
To: r-help mailing list <[hidden email]>
Cc: Lainey Gallenberg <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [R] Inappropriate color name

*** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] <a href="https://www.northland.edu/about/external-email">What does this mean?</a> ***

> On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Rolf Turner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100
> Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Elaine,
>> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I
>> don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
>> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon
>> to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the
>> user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the
>> words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly,
>> and gives the real offender time to find another epithet.
>
> Jim:  This is superbly expressed.  I wish that I could have said that!
> Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric,
> alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield".
>
> cheers,
>
> Rolf

You know, I wouldn’t have continued this thread (which has now wandered off topic from the original somewhat-more-technical question), but I feel now like it’s necessary to do so (and only fair, if anyone is considering moderating me after letting these posts by):

That is a view commonly held by white people, and even more overwhelmingly by white men. Our field is already not as diverse as it should be for a variety of reasons, and this “pretending no one else on earth exists” kind of stuff is at least some part of the reason. The question at issue here aside, white men complaining about people finding racism or sexism everywhere they look doesn’t pass the sniff test. Most or all of these things that people are reporting as offensive are being reported by people you’re clearly not listening to.

Further, impact is what matters. If I step on your foot, I apologize, regardless of whether or not it was intentional, because it’s the right thing to do. If someone tells you “that thing you’re saying is offensive or is hurting me” and you say “I didn’t mean it,” and then keep right on doing it, what does it say to the person on the receiving end of it? All anyone that is being “blamed,” as you put it, is being asked to do is to try to do better next time.

--
#BlackLivesMatter
____
|| \\UTGERS,   |---------------------------*O*---------------------------
||_// the State |         Ryan Novosielski - [hidden email]
|| \\ University | Sr. Technologist - 973/972.0922 (2x0922) ~*~ RBHS Campus
||  \\    of NJ | Office of Advanced Research Computing - MSB C630, Newark
     `'

______________________________________________
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Re: Inappropriate color name

R help mailing list-2
In reply to this post by Lainey Gallenberg

Apologies to the list for continuing a thread which is clearly off-topic.  However, contacting the maintainer of an R package to complain about this specific color name seems ill-considered.

1)  The name "indian red" is a part of widely-used color schemes everywhere, not just in R.  It's the color defined as:

"The color indianred / Indian red with hexadecimal color code #cd5c5c is a shade of red. In the RGB color model #cd5c5c is comprised of 80.39% red, 36.08% green and 36.08% blue. In the HSL color space #cd5c5c has a hue of 0° (degrees), 53% saturation and 58% lightness. This color has an approximate wavelength of 611.37 nm."

https://encycolorpedia.com/cd5c5c


2)  The "indian" in the color name refers to ferric oxide, historically sourced from India.  Per Wikipedia:

"The name Indian red derives from the red laterite soil found in India, which is composed of naturally occurring iron oxides.[citation needed] The first recorded use of Indian red as a color term in English was in 1672.[3"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_red_(color)


Given the name refers to the locus of the ferric oxide source, It isn't obvious that any particular group should be offended by the name.


--  T. Arthur Milne


> On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Rolf Turner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100
> Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Elaine,
>> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I
>> don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
>> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon
>> to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the
>> user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the
>> words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly,
>> and gives the real offender time to find another epithet.
>>
> Jim:  This is superbly expressed.  I wish that I could have said
> that! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric,
> alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield".
>
> cheers,
>
> Rolf
>
You know, I wouldn’t have continued this thread (which has now wandered off topic from the original somewhat-more-technical question), but I feel now like it’s necessary to do so (and only fair, if anyone is considering moderating me after letting these posts by):

That is a view commonly held by white people, and even more overwhelmingly by white men. Our field is already not as diverse as it should be for a variety of reasons, and this “pretending no one else on earth exists” kind of stuff is at least some part of the reason. The question at issue here aside, white men complaining about people finding racism or sexism everywhere they look doesn’t pass the sniff test. Most or all of these things that people are reporting as offensive are being reported by people you’re clearly not listening to.

Further, impact is what matters. If I step on your foot, I apologize, regardless of whether or not it was intentional, because it’s the right thing to do. If someone tells you “that thing you’re saying is offensive or is hurting me” and you say “I didn’t mean it,” and then keep right on doing it, what does it say to the person on the receiving end of it? All anyone that is being “blamed,” as you put it, is being asked to do is to try to do better next time.

--
#BlackLivesMatter
____
|| \\UTGERS,  |---------------------------*O*---------------------------
||_// the State |         Ryan Novosielski - [hidden email]
|| \\ University | Sr. Technologist - 973/972.0922 (2x0922) ~*~ RBHS Campus
||  \\    of NJ | Office of Advanced Research Computing - MSB C630, Newark
     `'

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
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and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.

______________________________________________
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Re: Inappropriate color name

Mitchell Maltenfort
What about just amputating the final "n?"

"Indian" might mean one of two things, but "India" is pretty distinct.



On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 4:10 PM T. A. Milne via R-help <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> Apologies to the list for continuing a thread which is clearly off-topic.
> However, contacting the maintainer of an R package to complain about this
> specific color name seems ill-considered.
>
> 1)  The name "indian red" is a part of widely-used color schemes
> everywhere, not just in R.  It's the color defined as:
>
> "The color indianred / Indian red with hexadecimal color code #cd5c5c is a
> shade of red. In the RGB color model #cd5c5c is comprised of 80.39% red,
> 36.08% green and 36.08% blue. In the HSL color space #cd5c5c has a hue of
> 0° (degrees), 53% saturation and 58% lightness. This color has an
> approximate wavelength of 611.37 nm."
>
> https://encycolorpedia.com/cd5c5c
>
>
> 2)  The "indian" in the color name refers to ferric oxide, historically
> sourced from India.  Per Wikipedia:
>
> "The name Indian red derives from the red laterite soil found in India,
> which is composed of naturally occurring iron oxides.[citation needed] The
> first recorded use of Indian red as a color term in English was in 1672.[3"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_red_(color)
>
>
> Given the name refers to the locus of the ferric oxide source, It isn't
> obvious that any particular group should be offended by the name.
>
>
> --  T. Arthur Milne
>
>
> > On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Rolf Turner <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100
> > Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Hi Elaine,
> >> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I
> >> don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
> >> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon
> >> to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the
> >> user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the
> >> words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly,
> >> and gives the real offender time to find another epithet.
> >>
> > Jim:  This is superbly expressed.  I wish that I could have said
> > that! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric,
> > alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield".
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > Rolf
> >
> You know, I wouldn’t have continued this thread (which has now wandered
> off topic from the original somewhat-more-technical question), but I feel
> now like it’s necessary to do so (and only fair, if anyone is considering
> moderating me after letting these posts by):
>
> That is a view commonly held by white people, and even more overwhelmingly
> by white men. Our field is already not as diverse as it should be for a
> variety of reasons, and this “pretending no one else on earth exists” kind
> of stuff is at least some part of the reason. The question at issue here
> aside, white men complaining about people finding racism or sexism
> everywhere they look doesn’t pass the sniff test. Most or all of these
> things that people are reporting as offensive are being reported by people
> you’re clearly not listening to.
>
> Further, impact is what matters. If I step on your foot, I apologize,
> regardless of whether or not it was intentional, because it’s the right
> thing to do. If someone tells you “that thing you’re saying is offensive or
> is hurting me” and you say “I didn’t mean it,” and then keep right on doing
> it, what does it say to the person on the receiving end of it? All anyone
> that is being “blamed,” as you put it, is being asked to do is to try to do
> better next time.
>
> --
> #BlackLivesMatter
> ____
> || \\UTGERS,     |---------------------------*O*---------------------------
> ||_// the State  |         Ryan Novosielski - [hidden email]
> || \\ University | Sr. Technologist - 973/972.0922 (2x0922) ~*~ RBHS Campus
> ||  \\    of NJ  | Office of Advanced Research Computing - MSB C630, Newark
>      `'
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>

        [[alternative HTML version deleted]]

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Re: Inappropriate color name

Spencer Graves-4
          Might it be appropriate to raise that question on the Talk page
associated with the Wikipedia article on "Indian red (color)":


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_red_(color)


          Many Wikimedian are generally sympathetic to discussions of
political correctness and similar topics.  If the name of that article
were changed, then it should be a lot easier to pursue a similar name
change elsewhere.


          Spencer Graves


On 2020-11-17 15:25, Mitchell Maltenfort wrote:

> What about just amputating the final "n?"
>
> "Indian" might mean one of two things, but "India" is pretty distinct.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 4:10 PM T. A. Milne via R-help <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Apologies to the list for continuing a thread which is clearly off-topic.
>> However, contacting the maintainer of an R package to complain about this
>> specific color name seems ill-considered.
>>
>> 1)  The name "indian red" is a part of widely-used color schemes
>> everywhere, not just in R.  It's the color defined as:
>>
>> "The color indianred / Indian red with hexadecimal color code #cd5c5c is a
>> shade of red. In the RGB color model #cd5c5c is comprised of 80.39% red,
>> 36.08% green and 36.08% blue. In the HSL color space #cd5c5c has a hue of
>> 0° (degrees), 53% saturation and 58% lightness. This color has an
>> approximate wavelength of 611.37 nm."
>>
>> https://encycolorpedia.com/cd5c5c
>>
>>
>> 2)  The "indian" in the color name refers to ferric oxide, historically
>> sourced from India.  Per Wikipedia:
>>
>> "The name Indian red derives from the red laterite soil found in India,
>> which is composed of naturally occurring iron oxides.[citation needed] The
>> first recorded use of Indian red as a color term in English was in 1672.[3"
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_red_(color)
>>
>>
>> Given the name refers to the locus of the ferric oxide source, It isn't
>> obvious that any particular group should be offended by the name.
>>
>>
>> --  T. Arthur Milne
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Rolf Turner <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100
>>> Jim Lemon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Elaine,
>>>> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I
>>>> don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or
>>>> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon
>>>> to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the
>>>> user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the
>>>> words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly,
>>>> and gives the real offender time to find another epithet.
>>>>
>>> Jim:  This is superbly expressed.  I wish that I could have said
>>> that! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric,
>>> alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield".
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>>
>>> Rolf
>>>
>> You know, I wouldn’t have continued this thread (which has now wandered
>> off topic from the original somewhat-more-technical question), but I feel
>> now like it’s necessary to do so (and only fair, if anyone is considering
>> moderating me after letting these posts by):
>>
>> That is a view commonly held by white people, and even more overwhelmingly
>> by white men. Our field is already not as diverse as it should be for a
>> variety of reasons, and this “pretending no one else on earth exists” kind
>> of stuff is at least some part of the reason. The question at issue here
>> aside, white men complaining about people finding racism or sexism
>> everywhere they look doesn’t pass the sniff test. Most or all of these
>> things that people are reporting as offensive are being reported by people
>> you’re clearly not listening to.
>>
>> Further, impact is what matters. If I step on your foot, I apologize,
>> regardless of whether or not it was intentional, because it’s the right
>> thing to do. If someone tells you “that thing you’re saying is offensive or
>> is hurting me” and you say “I didn’t mean it,” and then keep right on doing
>> it, what does it say to the person on the receiving end of it? All anyone
>> that is being “blamed,” as you put it, is being asked to do is to try to do
>> better next time.
>>
>> --
>> #BlackLivesMatter
>> ____
>> || \\UTGERS,     |---------------------------*O*---------------------------
>> ||_// the State  |         Ryan Novosielski - [hidden email]
>> || \\ University | Sr. Technologist - 973/972.0922 (2x0922) ~*~ RBHS Campus
>> ||  \\    of NJ  | Office of Advanced Research Computing - MSB C630, Newark
>>       `'
>>
>> ______________________________________________
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>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> [hidden email] mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
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>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>>
>
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>
> ______________________________________________
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______________________________________________
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PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
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