On Reproducible Code

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
22 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

On Reproducible Code

David Carlson
We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
reading it. Recently I had occasion to re-read the Posting Guide which is
for all R lists not just R-help. The word "reproducible" does not appear
anywhere in the guide. The closest it comes is the following suggestion:

"Sometimes it helps to provide a small example that someone can actually
run."

Recommendations to use the function dput() to provide sample data do not
appear in the guide.

The bottom of messages to R-help does contain the statement you've all seen,
but I had assumed it summarized advice found elsewhere since first time
posters may not see the message until after they have posted.

"PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal,
self-contained, reproducible code."

The Mailing Lists page describes R-help but refers only to the posting guide
http://www.r-project.org/mail.html and does not include this advisory
statement.

The R-help Info Page also refers only to the posting guide
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help and does not include this
advisory statement.

I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in
making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using
dput().

----------------------------------------------
David L Carlson
Associate Professor of Anthropology
Texas A&M University
College Station, TX 77843-4352

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Gabor Grothendieck
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:50 AM, David L Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
> reading it. Recently I had occasion to re-read the Posting Guide which is
> for all R lists not just R-help. The word "reproducible" does not appear
> anywhere in the guide. The closest it comes is the following suggestion:
>
> "Sometimes it helps to provide a small example that someone can actually
> run."
>
> Recommendations to use the function dput() to provide sample data do not
> appear in the guide.
>
> The bottom of messages to R-help does contain the statement you've all seen,
> but I had assumed it summarized advice found elsewhere since first time
> posters may not see the message until after they have posted.
>
> "PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal,
> self-contained, reproducible code."
>
> The Mailing Lists page describes R-help but refers only to the posting guide
> http://www.r-project.org/mail.html and does not include this advisory
> statement.
>
> The R-help Info Page also refers only to the posting guide
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help and does not include this
> advisory statement.
>
> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in
> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using
> dput().
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> David L Carlson
> Associate Professor of Anthropology
> Texas A&M University
> College Station, TX 77843-4352
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.

I agree that the posting guide is not ideal.  On the other hand, the
last line of every message to r-help does concisely list what is
required.

--
Statistics & Software Consulting
GKX Group, GKX Associates Inc.
tel: 1-877-GKX-GROUP
email: ggrothendieck at gmail.com

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Bert Gunter
In reply to this post by David Carlson
********************
 PLEASE provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Whenever possible, provide a small example that can be easily loaded
and run to illustrate your problem. The R function dput() should
generally be used to do this.

For a more complete discussion of how to post queries that will yield
accurate, helpful responses, refer to  the posting guide at
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html.
*********************

I agree. Perhaps slightly modifying the message and moving it to the
top as I have done here (please feel free to edit as appropriate)
would be useful. This might have the psychological advantage of making
it painfuly obvious to OP's and readers when they have not followed
the recommendations.

Might be worth a try and seems like something that would be easy to do.

Cheers,
Bert

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, David L Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
> reading it. Recently I had occasion to re-read the Posting Guide which is
> for all R lists not just R-help. The word "reproducible" does not appear
> anywhere in the guide. The closest it comes is the following suggestion:
>
> "Sometimes it helps to provide a small example that someone can actually
> run."
>
> Recommendations to use the function dput() to provide sample data do not
> appear in the guide.
>
> The bottom of messages to R-help does contain the statement you've all seen,
> but I had assumed it summarized advice found elsewhere since first time
> posters may not see the message until after they have posted.
>
> "PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal,
> self-contained, reproducible code."
>
> The Mailing Lists page describes R-help but refers only to the posting guide
> http://www.r-project.org/mail.html and does not include this advisory
> statement.
>
> The R-help Info Page also refers only to the posting guide
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help and does not include this
> advisory statement.
>
> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in
> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using
> dput().
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> David L Carlson
> Associate Professor of Anthropology
> Texas A&M University
> College Station, TX 77843-4352
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.



--

Bert Gunter
Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics

Internal Contact Info:
Phone: 467-7374
Website:
http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Gabor Grothendieck
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Bert Gunter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ********************
>  PLEASE provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
> Whenever possible, provide a small example that can be easily loaded
> and run to illustrate your problem. The R function dput() should
> generally be used to do this.
>
> For a more complete discussion of how to post queries that will yield
> accurate, helpful responses, refer to  the posting guide at
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html.
> *********************
>
> I agree. Perhaps slightly modifying the message and moving it to the
> top as I have done here (please feel free to edit as appropriate)
> would be useful. This might have the psychological advantage of making
> it painfuly obvious to OP's and readers when they have not followed
> the recommendations.
>

The one line summary at the end is better than the posting guide.  It
tells you right off what to do in just one line.

On the other hand realistically few are going to wade through the
posting guide..  Its better to keep the one line summary at the end
since that is the best bet that someone will actually read some
guidance on how to post.

--
Statistics & Software Consulting
GKX Group, GKX Associates Inc.
tel: 1-877-GKX-GROUP
email: ggrothendieck at gmail.com

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Rui Barradas
Hello,

This does not mean that the posting guide is useless. Nor that it
couldn't or shouldn't be changed.

I would say "shouldn't" because there's a clear call to reproducible
code in another part of R, the man files created by package.skeleton:

\examples{
##---- Should be DIRECTLY executable !! ----
##-- ==>  Define data, use random,
##--    or do  help(data=index)  for the standard data sets.

So maybe some of the posting guide should be more clear and concise.
Simple rules at the beginning, itemized or enumerated.

(And keep that end line.)

Rui Barradas

Em 25-07-2012 17:44, Gabor Grothendieck escreveu:

> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Bert Gunter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> ********************
>>   PLEASE provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>> Whenever possible, provide a small example that can be easily loaded
>> and run to illustrate your problem. The R function dput() should
>> generally be used to do this.
>>
>> For a more complete discussion of how to post queries that will yield
>> accurate, helpful responses, refer to  the posting guide at
>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html.
>> *********************
>>
>> I agree. Perhaps slightly modifying the message and moving it to the
>> top as I have done here (please feel free to edit as appropriate)
>> would be useful. This might have the psychological advantage of making
>> it painfuly obvious to OP's and readers when they have not followed
>> the recommendations.
>>
> The one line summary at the end is better than the posting guide.  It
> tells you right off what to do in just one line.
>
> On the other hand realistically few are going to wade through the
> posting guide..  Its better to keep the one line summary at the end
> since that is the best bet that someone will actually read some
> guidance on how to post.
>

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

David Winsemius
In reply to this post by David Carlson

On Jul 25, 2012, at 8:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:

> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
> reading it. Recently I had occasion to re-read the Posting Guide  
> which is
> for all R lists not just R-help. The word "reproducible" does not  
> appear
> anywhere in the guide. The closest it comes is the following  
> suggestion:
>
> "Sometimes it helps to provide a small example that someone can  
> actually
> run."
>
> Recommendations to use the function dput() to provide sample data do  
> not
> appear in the guide.

The absence of dput from the PG is a bit surprisong, but an equivalent  
bit of advice does appear:

"When providing examples, it is best to give an R command that  
constructs the data, as in the matrix() expression above. For more  
complicated data structures, dump("x", file=stdout()) will print an  
expression that will recreate the object x. "

--
David.

>
> The bottom of messages to R-help does contain the statement you've  
> all seen,
> but I had assumed it summarized advice found elsewhere since first  
> time
> posters may not see the message until after they have posted.
>
> "PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented,  
> minimal,
> self-contained, reproducible code."
>
> The Mailing Lists page describes R-help but refers only to the  
> posting guide
> http://www.r-project.org/mail.html and does not include this advisory
> statement.
>
> The R-help Info Page also refers only to the posting guide
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help and does not include this
> advisory statement.
>
> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some  
> advantage in
> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible  
> example using
> dput().
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> David L Carlson
> Associate Professor of Anthropology
> Texas A&M University
> College Station, TX 77843-4352
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.

David Winsemius, MD
Heritage Laboratories
West Hartford, CT

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Jim Lemon
In reply to this post by David Carlson
On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:
> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
> reading it.
>...
> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in
> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using
> dput().
>
The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the
"reproducible code" answers. Some, such as:

I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!!

probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated
brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like
"dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way
to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am
particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds
perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected
little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce
itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read:

Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data
(see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the
same problem.

I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function.

Jim

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

John Kane


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>
> On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:
>> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
>> reading it.
> >...
>> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in
>> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example
>> using
>> dput().
>>
> The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the
> "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as:
>
> I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!!
>
> probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated
> brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like
> "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way
> to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am
> particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds
> perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected
> little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce
> itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read:
>
> Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data
> (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the
> same problem.
>
> I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function.
>
> Jim
I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post before someone mentioned ?dput.  Ah, yes, I still have a couple of generic ones archived.

I think your wording above makes a lot of sense.

____________________________________________________________
GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys
Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™ and most webmails

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Bert Gunter
I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post.

-- Bert

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>>
>> On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:
>>> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
>>> reading it.
>> >...
>>> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in
>>> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example
>>> using
>>> dput().
>>>
>> The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the
>> "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as:
>>
>> I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!!
>>
>> probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated
>> brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like
>> "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way
>> to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am
>> particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds
>> perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected
>> little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce
>> itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read:
>>
>> Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data
>> (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the
>> same problem.
>>
>> I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function.
>>
>> Jim
> I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post before someone mentioned ?dput.  Ah, yes, I still have a couple of generic ones archived.
>
> I think your wording above makes a lot of sense.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys
> Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™ and most webmails
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.



--

Bert Gunter
Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics

Internal Contact Info:
Phone: 467-7374
Website:
http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

John Kane
I'd vote for that!  
It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it.

John Kane
Kingston ON Canada


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>
> I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post.
>
> -- Bert
>
> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>>>
>>> On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:
>>>> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
>>>> reading it.
>>> >...
>>>> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage
>>>> in
>>>> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example
>>>> using
>>>> dput().
>>>>
>>> The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the
>>> "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as:
>>>
>>> I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!!
>>>
>>> probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated
>>> brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like
>>> "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way
>>> to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am
>>> particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds
>>> perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected
>>> little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce
>>> itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read:
>>>
>>> Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data
>>> (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the
>>> same problem.
>>>
>>> I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function.
>>>
>>> Jim
>> I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post
>> before someone mentioned ?dput.  Ah, yes, I still have a couple of
>> generic ones archived.
>>
>> I think your wording above makes a lot of sense.
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at
>> http://www.inbox.com/smileys
>> Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™
>> and most webmails
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> [hidden email] mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bert Gunter
> Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics
>
> Internal Contact Info:
> Phone: 467-7374
> Website:
> http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm

____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Hadley Wickham-2
That assumes:

* Everyone reads the mailing list before making the first posting

* Everyone reads every part of every email.

I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well
trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails.

I'd suggest an alternative approach is for experts to remember what
it's like to be a novice, and cultivate an attitude of patience and
tolerance.  That's about as likely to happen as a mass change in
behaviour in new users.

Hadley

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd vote for that!
> It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it.
>
> John Kane
> Kingston ON Canada
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>>
>> I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post.
>>
>> -- Bert
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>>>>
>>>> On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:
>>>>> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
>>>>> reading it.
>>>> >...
>>>>> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage
>>>>> in
>>>>> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example
>>>>> using
>>>>> dput().
>>>>>
>>>> The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the
>>>> "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as:
>>>>
>>>> I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!!
>>>>
>>>> probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated
>>>> brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like
>>>> "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way
>>>> to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am
>>>> particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds
>>>> perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected
>>>> little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce
>>>> itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read:
>>>>
>>>> Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data
>>>> (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the
>>>> same problem.
>>>>
>>>> I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>> I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post
>>> before someone mentioned ?dput.  Ah, yes, I still have a couple of
>>> generic ones archived.
>>>
>>> I think your wording above makes a lot of sense.
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at
>>> http://www.inbox.com/smileys
>>> Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™
>>> and most webmails
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________
>>> [hidden email] mailing list
>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bert Gunter
>> Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics
>>
>> Internal Contact Info:
>> Phone: 467-7374
>> Website:
>> http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.



--
Assistant Professor / Dobelman Family Junior Chair
Department of Statistics / Rice University
http://had.co.nz/

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Rui Barradas
Hello,

I agree with you. That's why I've proposed an itemized text.
I want my VCR manual to give me point by point instructions, not to give
me a clear and brief discourse on exactly what to do. And, though
without access to VCR manufacturers' data tables, I'm with the
impression that their way works. Users, seen as a mass, adopt the habit
of reading the literature.

Rui Barradas

Em 27-07-2012 18:47, Hadley Wickham escreveu:

> That assumes:
>
> * Everyone reads the mailing list before making the first posting
>
> * Everyone reads every part of every email.
>
> I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well
> trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails.
>
> I'd suggest an alternative approach is for experts to remember what
> it's like to be a novice, and cultivate an attitude of patience and
> tolerance.  That's about as likely to happen as a mass change in
> behaviour in new users.
>
> Hadley
>
> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'd vote for that!
>> It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it.
>>
>> John Kane
>> Kingston ON Canada
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>>>
>>> I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post.
>>>
>>> -- Bert
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000
>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>>>>>
>>>>> On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:
>>>>>> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
>>>>>> reading it.
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example
>>>>>> using
>>>>>> dput().
>>>>>>
>>>>> The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the
>>>>> "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as:
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated
>>>>> brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like
>>>>> "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way
>>>>> to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am
>>>>> particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds
>>>>> perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected
>>>>> little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce
>>>>> itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data
>>>>> (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the
>>>>> same problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>> I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post
>>>> before someone mentioned ?dput.  Ah, yes, I still have a couple of
>>>> generic ones archived.
>>>>
>>>> I think your wording above makes a lot of sense.
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at
>>>> http://www.inbox.com/smileys
>>>> Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™
>>>> and most webmails
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>> [hidden email] mailing list
>>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>>>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>>>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>>>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Bert Gunter
>>> Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics
>>>
>>> Internal Contact Info:
>>> Phone: 467-7374
>>> Website:
>>> http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> [hidden email] mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>
>

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Jeff Newmiller
In reply to this post by Hadley Wickham-2
I would like to be able to refer briefly to longer explanations such as the stackoverflow article on reproducible examples rather than patiently rewrite such explanations. A posting guide with more specific recommendations would make it easier to "be patient".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Newmiller                        The     .....       .....  Go Live...
DCN:<[hidden email]>        Basics: ##.#.       ##.#.  Live Go...
                                      Live:   OO#.. Dead: OO#..  Playing
Research Engineer (Solar/Batteries            O.O#.       #.O#.  with
/Software/Embedded Controllers)               .OO#.       .OO#.  rocks...1k
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent from my phone. Please excuse my brevity.

Hadley Wickham <[hidden email]> wrote:

>That assumes:
>
>* Everyone reads the mailing list before making the first posting
>
>* Everyone reads every part of every email.
>
>I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well
>trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails.
>
>I'd suggest an alternative approach is for experts to remember what
>it's like to be a novice, and cultivate an attitude of patience and
>tolerance.  That's about as likely to happen as a mass change in
>behaviour in new users.
>
>Hadley
>
>On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'd vote for that!
>> It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the
>time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information
>so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well
>worth it.
>>
>> John Kane
>> Kingston ON Canada
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>>>
>>> I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every
>post.
>>>
>>> -- Bert
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000
>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>>>>>
>>>>> On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:
>>>>>> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for
>not
>>>>>> reading it.
>>>>> >...
>>>>>> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some
>advantage
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible
>example
>>>>>> using
>>>>>> dput().
>>>>>>
>>>>> The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of
>the
>>>>> "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as:
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the
>overheated
>>>>> brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name
>like
>>>>> "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is
>the way
>>>>> to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am
>>>>> particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which
>sounds
>>>>> perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the
>neglected
>>>>> little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to
>reproduce
>>>>> itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it
>read:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough
>data
>>>>> (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get
>the
>>>>> same problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput"
>function.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>> I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to
>post
>>>> before someone mentioned ?dput.  Ah, yes, I still have a couple of
>>>> generic ones archived.
>>>>
>>>> I think your wording above makes a lot of sense.
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at
>>>> http://www.inbox.com/smileys
>>>> Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google
>Talk™
>>>> and most webmails
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>> [hidden email] mailing list
>>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>>>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>>>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>>>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Bert Gunter
>>> Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics
>>>
>>> Internal Contact Info:
>>> Phone: 467-7374
>>> Website:
>>>
>http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> [hidden email] mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>
>
>
>--
>Assistant Professor / Dobelman Family Junior Chair
>Department of Statistics / Rice University
>http://had.co.nz/
>
>______________________________________________
>[hidden email] mailing list
>https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>PLEASE do read the posting guide
>http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Hadley Wickham-2
> I would like to be able to refer briefly to longer explanations such as the stackoverflow article on reproducible examples rather than patiently rewrite such explanations. A posting guide with more specific recommendations would make it easier to "be patient".

That's definitely a good idea! But you can do it in essentially two ways:

Hey moron, why don't you know what everyone else already knows about
reproducible examples? http://bit.ly/N8Qml6

OR

It's hard to know what exactly what's going wrong without a
reproducible example.  If you haven't created one before, you might
want to read all about it on stackoverflow:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5963269. It's a small investment
that's likely to pay off big.

Both are equally easy to copy and paste (or otherwise reproduce). But
unfortunately it sometimes seems like there is much more of the former
than the latter on R-help.

Hadley

--
Assistant Professor / Dobelman Family Junior Chair
Department of Statistics / Rice University
http://had.co.nz/

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Bert Gunter
In reply to this post by Hadley Wickham-2
....

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Hadley Wickham <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That assumes:
>
> * Everyone reads the mailing list before making the first posting
>
> * Everyone reads every part of every email.
>
> I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well
> trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails.

-- which is why I suggested that Jim Lemon's brief version go at the top.

There's obviously no magic bullet. We're in the realm of social
psychology, I guess, here, so I certainly don't have much insight. But
I think the experiment is easy and worth trying.

-- Bert


>
> I'd suggest an alternative approach is for experts to remember what
> it's like to be a novice, and cultivate an attitude of patience and
> tolerance.  That's about as likely to happen as a mass change in
> behaviour in new users.
>
> Hadley
>
> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'd vote for that!
>> It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it.
>>
>> John Kane
>> Kingston ON Canada
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>>>
>>> I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post.
>>>
>>> -- Bert
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000
>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>>>>>
>>>>> On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:
>>>>>> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
>>>>>> reading it.
>>>>> >...
>>>>>> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example
>>>>>> using
>>>>>> dput().
>>>>>>
>>>>> The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the
>>>>> "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as:
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated
>>>>> brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like
>>>>> "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way
>>>>> to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am
>>>>> particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds
>>>>> perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected
>>>>> little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce
>>>>> itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data
>>>>> (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the
>>>>> same problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>> I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post
>>>> before someone mentioned ?dput.  Ah, yes, I still have a couple of
>>>> generic ones archived.
>>>>
>>>> I think your wording above makes a lot of sense.
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at
>>>> http://www.inbox.com/smileys
>>>> Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™
>>>> and most webmails
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>> [hidden email] mailing list
>>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>>>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>>>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>>>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Bert Gunter
>>> Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics
>>>
>>> Internal Contact Info:
>>> Phone: 467-7374
>>> Website:
>>> http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> [hidden email] mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>
>
>
> --
> Assistant Professor / Dobelman Family Junior Chair
> Department of Statistics / Rice University
> http://had.co.nz/



--

Bert Gunter
Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics

Internal Contact Info:
Phone: 467-7374
Website:
http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

barry rowlingson
In reply to this post by John Kane
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Hadley Wickham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well
> trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails.

 One day the list owner will subtly change the boilerplate text at the
bottom of R-help emails and nobody will notice.

> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and give the list maintainer all your money and jewels and nobody will get hurt.



--
blog: http://geospaced.blogspot.com/
web: http://www.maths.lancs.ac.uk/~rowlings
web: http://www.rowlingson.com/
twitter: http://twitter.com/geospacedman
pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/spacedman

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Yihui Xie-2
Yes I agree.

Regards,
Yihui
--
Yihui Xie <[hidden email]>
Phone: 515-294-2465 Web: http://yihui.name
Department of Statistics, Iowa State University
2215 Snedecor Hall, Ames, IA


On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Barry Rowlingson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Hadley Wickham <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well
>> trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails.
>
>  One day the list owner will subtly change the boilerplate text at the
> bottom of R-help emails and nobody will notice.
>
>> ______________________________________________
>> [hidden email] mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and give the list maintainer all your money and jewels and nobody will get hurt.
>
>
>
> --
> blog: http://geospaced.blogspot.com/
> web: http://www.maths.lancs.ac.uk/~rowlings
> web: http://www.rowlingson.com/
> twitter: http://twitter.com/geospacedman
> pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/spacedman
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do not read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide uncommented, maximal, not self-contained, non-reproducible code.

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

John Kane
In reply to this post by barry rowlingson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> Sent: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 00:01:14 +0100
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
>
> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Hadley Wickham <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well
>> trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails.
>
>  One day the list owner will subtly change the boilerplate text at the
> bottom of R-help emails and nobody will notice.
>

Not 1 necessarily so. I glance at it occasionally while deleting it.

John Kane
Kingston ON Canada



>> ______________________________________________
>> [hidden email] mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and give the list maintainer all your money and jewels and nobody will
>> get hurt.
>
>
>
> --
> blog: http://geospaced.blogspot.com/
> web: http://www.maths.lancs.ac.uk/~rowlings
> web: http://www.rowlingson.com/
> twitter: http://twitter.com/geospacedman
> pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/spacedman

____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop!

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Thomas Adams
In reply to this post by Hadley Wickham-2
Hadley,

Thank you for posting this. I think the danger is that novices (and I'm not
far removed from that category) can be intimidated by R, but more so by R
experts that make people AFRAID to ask questions. The danger is that these
intimidating R experts could turn people away from using R; at the very
least, novices could end up wasting valuable time trying to complete their
projects because they can't get the help they are searching for.

Nothing is gained by punishing people over their internet 'manners'…

Tom

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Hadley Wickham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That assumes:
>
> * Everyone reads the mailing list before making the first posting
>
> * Everyone reads every part of every email.
>
> I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well
> trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails.
>
> I'd suggest an alternative approach is for experts to remember what
> it's like to be a novice, and cultivate an attitude of patience and
> tolerance.  That's about as likely to happen as a mass change in
> behaviour in new users.
>
> Hadley
>
> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I'd vote for that!
> > It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time
> savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that
> someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it.
> >
> > John Kane
> > Kingston ON Canada
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
> >>
> >> I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post.
> >>
> >> -- Bert
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: [hidden email]
> >>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000
> >>>> To: [hidden email]
> >>>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
> >>>>
> >>>> On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:
> >>>>> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
> >>>>> reading it.
> >>>> >...
> >>>>> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example
> >>>>> using
> >>>>> dput().
> >>>>>
> >>>> The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the
> >>>> "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as:
> >>>>
> >>>> I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!!
> >>>>
> >>>> probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated
> >>>> brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like
> >>>> "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the
> way
> >>>> to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am
> >>>> particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds
> >>>> perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected
> >>>> little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce
> >>>> itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read:
> >>>>
> >>>> Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough
> data
> >>>> (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the
> >>>> same problem.
> >>>>
> >>>> I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jim
> >>> I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post
> >>> before someone mentioned ?dput.  Ah, yes, I still have a couple of
> >>> generic ones archived.
> >>>
> >>> I think your wording above makes a lot of sense.
> >>>
> >>> ____________________________________________________________
> >>> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at
> >>> http://www.inbox.com/smileys
> >>> Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™
> >>> and most webmails
> >>>
> >>> ______________________________________________
> >>> [hidden email] mailing list
> >>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> >>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> >>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> >>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Bert Gunter
> >> Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics
> >>
> >> Internal Contact Info:
> >> Phone: 467-7374
> >> Website:
> >>
> http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > [hidden email] mailing list
> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> > PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>
>
>
> --
> Assistant Professor / Dobelman Family Junior Chair
> Department of Statistics / Rice University
> http://had.co.nz/
>
> ______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>


--

Thomas E Adams
National Weather Service
Ohio River Forecast Center
1901 South State Route 134
Wilmington, OH 45177

EMAIL: [hidden email]
VOICE: 937-383-0528
FAX: 937-383-0033

        [[alternative HTML version deleted]]


______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: On Reproducible Code

Peter Dalgaard-2

On Jul 30, 2012, at 13:05 , Thomas Adams wrote:

>
> Nothing is gained by punishing people over their internet 'manners'∑
>
> Tom

On the contrary, everything can be lost by allowing abusers to persevere!

(And yes, there are people who no longer attempt to help, because of ungrateful and downright arrogant behavior they have experienced on the lists.)

--
Peter Dalgaard, Professor,
Center for Statistics, Copenhagen Business School
Solbjerg Plads 3, 2000 Frederiksberg, Denmark
Phone: (+45)38153501
Email: [hidden email]  Priv: [hidden email]

______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
12